Building a Passionate Audience: The Journey of the Startup Podcast

Adam Spencer: I'm Adam Spencer, and this is Earning Ears, the show that helps you earn your audience's attention. We talked to world class audience builders about the tools, tactics, and mindset that they use to grow their audiences from zero.

Yaniv Bernstein: It seems a bit trite, but if you want to produce good content, live an interesting life. I think that's, that's really at the core of it. 

Adam Spencer: That's Yaniv Bernstein, who definitely lives an interesting life. He's been a software engineering manager for Google, chief operating officer of Airtasker, he's an angel investor, founder of Circular, a tech subscription service evolving the way people consume technology, and plenty more.

Yaniv draws on all of this experience as co host of the Startup Podcast, which explores the mindset and approach that drives Silicon Valley style disruption. And in only a couple of years has surpassed 100, 000 downloads. We discuss what makes podcasting A unique medium, the strategies they've used to build their audience and some of the lessons they've learned along the way.

Welcome Yaniv to Earning Ears. Thanks for being here. Good to be here. Thanks for having me on. What's been earning 

Yaniv Bernstein: your attention lately? So of course it is the first Czech podcast by the Day One Network. 

Adam Spencer: That sounds set up. 

Yaniv Bernstein: That is entirely set up. No, it's good. I have been listening to it. It's a great show.

Um, actually, but one, one podcast I've been kind of getting a little bit obsessed with lately is called age of miracles, which is by Paki McCormack, who's kind of a well known investor and he's gone down the rabbit hole into nuclear power. And you know, one of the things that's sort of been interesting and depressing is how like energy sources have become politicized, which just seems insane, right?

If you're looking at like energy transitions, it's like. This is as close to science and engineering as it gets. There's no politics here. And so anyway, it was just like fairly long form podcast that goes deep into different forms of nuclear energy, where things are at, how, and to what extent can it help with the energy transition away from fossil fuels?

And it was just quite engaging and it was nice to go into a sort of deep technical Topic presented in an accessible way. 

Adam Spencer: What was the name of the show again? 

Yaniv Bernstein: It's called Age of Miracles, which I thought was a pretty cool name as well. 

Adam Spencer: Awesome, yeah, we'll put that in the show notes, very interesting. As a way to catch listeners up, because a lot of people that are listening to this podcast, as you know, we're in the startup space, they're probably already aware of your podcast, the Startup Podcast, but can you just catch people up, like how did, how did the, an operations guy end up as?

Uh, content creator 

Yaniv Bernstein: as well. I mean, my, my background's not really in operations. I'm, I'm an engineer, I'm a software engineer. So I, I spent 10 years as a software engineer at Google and went into engineering roles at some Australian scale ups, first Flare HR and then Airtasker, and it was at Airtasker, I think that I got really.

Interested in not just engineering, the delivery of software, but how do all the different functions work together? How do you build an effective organization, an effective business that delivers value to its customers and ultimately to its shareholders as well? And, um, I saw that really that the magic was between the different silos, between the different functions, um, and in building that effective organization.

So that's, so even as CEO, I was less. Operations and more operating. In other words, running the organization, uh, to turn those raw materials, the strategy, the capital, the, the vision into some sort of reality. That's been really interesting. And after I left Airtasker, I did a bunch of coaching, consulting, advising and investing.

So I got exposure to a lot more startups. And I started seeing this pattern over and over again, which is we've seen that startups and founders are now everywhere, right? It used to be the sort of geographically concentrated thing. Like it was obviously Silicon Valley and then maybe a little bit in New York, a little bit in London, a little bit in Tel Aviv, whatever, but only a few global centers of.

And now it is everywhere. And what we find is the capital and the founders are there, right? We have, we have venture capital investors. We have keen founders, but often what's missing is this deep understanding of what it actually is to build a venture backed startup. So that the ecosystems are fresh and in a sense, the money's come in and the enthusiasm has come in before the hard one lessons have.

Have kind of permeated. So if you look at Silicon Valley, the real advantage in my view is not the not, not the amount of capital or even the availability of raw talent. It is the experience in the ecosystem and knowing how to play the game and you know what the rules are and how to really succeed as a venture backed startup.

And so, yeah, I think that's it. It's something that I got kind of, as an Australian, I got, I got a little bit head up about, I was like, we are squandering our opportunity in a sense, or at least we're not making the most of our opportunity because we don't know how to build. Systematically great tech companies, we've obviously had a couple of exceptional successes with Atlassian and Canva in particular, but I also see this whole layer beneath those of somewhat successful companies that could have been so much more successful and then below that, so many startups with the passion, with the energy and with potentially a real problem to solve who don't really know how to get out of their own ways.

And it was all of that, that, that led me and Chris to start the startup podcast because we both have that Silicon Valley background. I was at Google for 10 years, uh, Chris was at Uber, he founded his own startup over there. And we wanted to share a little bit of our knowledge of how the game is played with founders and investors in Australia.

But then we actually found the audience for this is global because there are founders all over the world who are struggling with these same challenges. 

Adam Spencer: So many follow ups and I want to get into that story of how you and Chris met. But first of all, were there any transferable skills that you took from?

Because I imagine being a developer and going into operations that there was some kind of overlap, like you're both kind of basically building systems. 

Yaniv Bernstein: Exactly. Building systems is where it's at. And actually before I did the podcast, I had a sort of newsletter, more of a blog really, uh, for a couple of years that I called People Engineering.

And the principle there is that I think a lot of that system thinking That goes into building great software. So good software engineering is not mostly about coding. It's actually mostly about system thinking. It's mostly about designing large complex systems that have complex interactions between the different components.

And when you look at an organization, it's the same thing. It's a large complex system with complex interactions between different parts of the system. Just in this case, the components of the system, instead of being software, are people. And how much more fascinating does it get? Right? This is not about reductionism.

This is not about saying that people are cogs in the machine. It's, if anything, it's the opposite. It's saying you've got this complex system created from unique individuals, organized in a complex way, and if you get the organization right and I don't, don't just mean the structure, I mean the culture, I mean the communication flows, I mean the strategy.

Then you can do the most amazing magical things, but actually most of the time that doesn't go right, like most organizations are suboptimal, right? And so definitely I think that engineering kind of mindset of like, how do I design and implement an effective organizational system is something that that's always fascinated me.

Adam Spencer: Yeah, it's, it's fascinating to me as well. And when you say you get it right, like you, when you get it right, the sum of the parts become so much greater than. The parts, but when you've got these sub optimal organizations, the output of every single person is reduced basically because of the inefficiency of the organization and all those factors you just said, uh, culture.

Yaniv Bernstein: That's right. And it's a not, it's a nonlinear system by which I mean that, you know, a small change in one part of the system can have a large effect elsewhere in the system. Right? So you really have to, you have to have a holistic view. And I think that's why, you know, when you asked me about my transition from engineering into.

Into that operating role it's because I was like, it doesn't matter how much I focus on my engineering organization. The, the magic is how does engineering work with product? How does it work with design, with marketing, with, with customer support? And I spent more and more of my time in terms of making my engineering team effective outside of engineering, because it was really about how did engineering work with all these other parts of the company.

And so given that the transition to chief operating officer was actually relatively organic because I was already spending all of my time. In these in betweens, how, how do these different components fit together to make an effective whole? 

Adam Spencer: I really want to get into the Startup Podcast, but one quick more question.

We've got the founders, we've got the capital, we don't have the know how and there's a lot of communities all over the world, startup communities that are suffering from the same thing. Do you think that's just a case of time? Time will catch up, experience will catch up. How did Silicon Valley get it right?

Yaniv Bernstein: Yeah. I mean, I think it's all of the above like time, I think is an inescapable ingredient. Right. And Silicon Valley, you know, I think there was this, there was this feeling, you know, especially during COVID everyone's working remotely. It's like, well, you know, Silicon Valley isn't a place. It's just a state of mind.

And no, that's not true. Silicon Valley, it's a place. And you know, that, that physical proximity of people and that, 60 plus years of experience building venture backed startups that cannot be replaced. And I think for that reason, Silicon Valley will continue to be a special place. And you know, I've always been very aware.

I've said it to myself. I've said it to others. If you're in tech and you're not living in Silicon Valley, you have made a lifestyle choice. Now that's completely fine. You know, it's, it's good to make lifestyle choices, but it's clearly the best place. If you want to start a startup, it is the place to do it.

Um, if you want to be involved in tech, it is the place to be. We make these lifestyle choices and then a lot of people, you know, also sometimes it's, it's a visa choice, family, whatever it is, right? You can't get there, so there are start ups all over the world, and what I do think we can do is accelerate the time frame a bit, right?

Accelerate the timeline. Because I don't think we can wait 60 years to get all that know how, right? We need to put the structures in place now, we need to put the learning in place now. There's no substitute for experience. I don't think you can listen to a podcast and like, Okay, now, now I've got 60 years of Silicon Valley wisdom in my head, off I go.

But I think you can, you can learn the ropes, you can learn the basics, you can avoid some of the big landmines and dead ends and, and, and wrong ways of thinking or unhelpful ways of thinking so that you can actually get there faster and at least Make the right mistakes instead of just wasting your time.

So, you know, I think some things you've got to learn by touching the hot stove. Uh, but at least get out of your own way and focus on that core learning journey as an individual, as a founder, as a company, as an ecosystem, rather than spinning around in circles and, and wasting time getting in your own way.

Adam Spencer: So clearly you are frustrated by this lack of experience in the ecosystem. You want to help solve that. How did you happen to find a kindred spirit who was finding this, having this, and I'm sure there's lots of people out there. The feeling is frustrated as you, but how did you and Chris meet and, and kind of have this aha moment?

Yaniv Bernstein: Well, it's a very modern story. We, we met on LinkedIn. It's funny. I just finished recording an episode of the startup podcast with a, a sort of a personal brand builder in, in the tech space is quite well known. And we were talking about the, what is the value of building a personal brand? That was actually the topic of the episode and putting yourself out there.

And I think what had happened is that, you know, Chris and I had met once or twice. Um, but really we were consuming each other's content on LinkedIn. We were commenting on it and we, we saw that we were kindred spirits. Um, and I liked that he was outspoken and opinionated. Um, and I guess he liked that about me as well.

And, you know, I've wanted to do a podcast for a while and the frustration was kind of bubbling over a bit. And so it was quite impulsive. I sort of just DM'd him and I'm like, Hey. Let's do a podcast and we literally, you know, I set up anchor, which is now called Spotify for podcasters in about 15 minutes and we just recorded off the cuff, uh, that same episode that day, which is our very first episode, still one of our most ever listened to episodes because it continues to get new downloads.

I'm a bit scared of listening to it again because I think it was pretty bad, but obviously it did resonate with people and then yeah, we enjoyed it. And so. I think it was the sort of the joy and the enjoyment of it that took us to that, you know, kept us on that weekly schedule that we've kept up for nearly two years now.

Adam Spencer: I am a little bit envious of how well you guys have hit the nail on the head because as a podcast producer and my entire life and business is built around like, how do we make a good podcast? How do we make a great podcast? And there's all these workshops and strategy we've got to do to get it right, but you've Yeah, you guys have just kind of hit the ground, well, it seems to me from the outside looking in that you've really hit or found a spot, like a, a really good sweet spot where, yeah, there is a lot of desire and need for this content that you guys are putting out.

Can you talk me through that? Like, was there any planning involved? How did you come up with the premise of the show that, that has hit so well? 

Yaniv Bernstein: Well, first of all, thank you. Um, but no, there wasn't planning involved. Like I said, it was, it was nearly kind of impulsive. Because we both had this B in our bonnet, right?

We were both agitated about this, this thing. And I think I just saw that I, you know, I'd wanted to do a podcast. This was something that was important. I saw this kindred spirit and we, we started. But, you know, this hasn't been like a crazy rocket ship success story in terms of Growth. It's been, and I think this is true for most content and especially podcasts, which is an interesting medium, as I'm sure, you know, it's a, it's a grind.

So while I don't think there was a huge amount of intentionality and like, you know, this is our growth strategy and, you know, this is our branding and so on at the beginning. And I'm, I'm still quite ambivalent about the name, the startup podcast. It is not good for SEO. 

Adam Spencer: You're competing against, uh, the Gimlet's show for starters.

Yaniv Bernstein: Yes, indeed we are, indeed we are. But, but yeah, it's not a huge amount of intention went into it at the beginning, but I think once we started doing it, once we started. Investing our time into it. We realized that we wanted to make that a good investment. And so we nearly backed into, into this as a kind of a business as something where we needed a strategy and we needed production and we needed distribution and all of these things.

It's, it's sort of, it's nearly ironic, right? Because we, we have this podcast that is about venture backed startups and what we've ended up. By accident creating is a highly bootstrapped startup, which is the podcast itself. Um, you know, it was, it was nearly like, okay, we have this podcast. We want to get more people to listen to it.

So we need to improve our production values and maybe spend a little bit of money on distribution. So now we have expenses. We need to find some way of bringing in revenue to meet those expenses. And then of course, in order to do that, you need sales collateral and so on. It's like, Oh, you know, a little like one hour a week where we were going to record and publish something.

It, it's still a side hustle, but it's become recognizably a business. Even, even if we don't make any money out of it ourselves, it's a business. And, and, you know, at that point we became a lot more intentional about how we, how we did things. 

Adam Spencer: So very early on, you guys had a beaner bonnet. You wanted to, you already wanted to start a podcast.

You started one. Were there any signals that you were looking for early on? To see of what you were making, people were liking it. Yeah. Well, how in your mind were you measuring, should we do another one? Should we do another one? 

Yaniv Bernstein: I mean, there's two things, first of all, and this sounds maybe a little bit, a bit naff, but is, you know, are we having fun?

Uh, you know, one of the, the most trite bits of podcasts or content advice in general, but I think podcasts especially is. You have got to stay the course. It takes perseverance to do this and you know, most podcasts never even make it to 10 episodes because it's, it's more work than you think. It's always more work than you think.

And you kind of give up on it. Um, and so it becomes a question of, okay. Are we having enough fun to justify this, that, that, you know, that, that can be justified as like, can we keep going because we're having enough fun? And then the other thing is it's really the, the sort of the direct feedback, you know, we were getting people DMing us saying, this is amazing.

We love it. And, you know, that's obviously that personal feedback from listeners. The fact that you realize you're influencing other people positively, um, is, is quite rewarding. And, you know, by being rewarding, it also becomes addictive. And so you're like, okay, you know, can, can we keep doing this and helping more people?

Adam Spencer: I love that you pointed out that, you know, It hasn't been a rocket rocket ship success, you know, and it's been a grind I always say that to people like creating any type of content It's gonna take a long time in it But it's gonna take a long time because you need to publish so you can get information So you can make better decisions about how you guide that ship and constantly iterate.

That's what I think content is good at Get information, iterate, make it better, publish again. A guide through the unique mindset and approach that drives Silicon Valley style disruption at scale. Hosted by Chris Saad and Yeniv Bernstein. Bernstein, Bernstein, sorry. I prefer Bernstein, but that is fine.

Yeniv Bernstein, uh, perfect description. Um, but was that what it was to start with? Like, was there an iterative, iterative kind of approach to, to getting clear on what your show was about? I hate to disappoint you, but no, it was that from the start. 

Yaniv Bernstein: So 

Adam Spencer: I guess, again, nailed it. 

Yaniv Bernstein: I don't think we've even changed the wording.

Yeah, I guess we, we just, we knew what we wanted to do. And I think that's. You, you and I are in slightly different businesses because, you know, you're trying to create a sort of a production house, whereas we just have this one thing. And, but, but I think, you know, one of the things to consider is, okay, there's the iteration piece.

Absolutely. But there's also, do you have that sort of clear through line where you know what you're trying to do? Because I think that really connects with your audience, right? It's like, oh, okay. These people have a. Topic that they really care about and I know if I tune in I'm gonna get that. 

Adam Spencer: Yeah, 

Yaniv Bernstein: you know, it's funny Sometimes Chris and I debate because he gets he gets a little bit out of it.

We're coming on to a hundredth episode now 

Adam Spencer: Yeah, 

Yaniv Bernstein: and we know we talk about what what episode you know, what topic should we cover and and then he gets Agitated as like, Oh, haven't we already covered that in that other episode? I'm like, well, maybe to a certain extent, but we can dive a bit deeper. We can put a different angle on it, a different lens on it.

And one of the things I think, especially for sort of long running podcasts, rather than, you know, sort of a shorter seasonal format is people do in the end, tune in and expect a certain amount of repetition. Because what they're doing really is they're talking that they're in a parasocial relationship, which means, you know, they've gotten to know you.

They've gotten to know what you're about and what you care about, and they like listening to you talk about things that they care about. And so it doesn't mean that you never bring new ideas and you don't bring novelty, uh, but there, there is a sense of you want to be very clear, have a sort of very clear core about what you're on about.

And often that comes about at the beginning, it's, it's a little bit difficult to AB test your way to that because it's sort of ends up in the DNA of the show really. 

Adam Spencer: I am, yeah, again, so, I don't know what the right word is, if it's impressed or, or envious of how, like, I love that clear, very, very clear mission, cut through, you knew what you wanted to do, it's something that you were passionate about, you kind of shortcutted, shortcut a lot of this whole development stage, figuring out what your niche was, because you were, you were kind of in your niche, you, almost part of your audience, but just for the sake of asking the question, you know, I guess I'll just ask, like, how valuable do you think having that really laser focused, niche approach to podcasting or any content creation, because you're killing it on LinkedIn as well with your kind of content.

How important do you think that niche aspect is? It's 

Yaniv Bernstein: something I struggle with, actually. Because I, I, I think the conventional wisdom and probably the correct wisdom is if you want to maximize your growth and exposure in terms of your audience is you want to be incredibly clear and I think, you know, that the podcast happens to have the sort of clear niche because it's the thing we care about, um, my audience, my, my LinkedIn persona is a bit more like.

I talk about whatever I feel like talking about. I'm not that disciplined and I, I feel a certain level of anxiety around, well, you know, perhaps I should have this sort of very clear. This is what I talk about and this is the only thing I talk about and I hammer it home and people know me as the person who talks about this particular niche.

And I think that does lead to maximal growth, but I think there's more than one way to skin the cat, right? Like if you want to become known for one thing, then you can grow faster. I think if you feel like you have enough interesting things to say, and you just want to say them, then you can build a sort of a deeper relationship, because people start to get to know you as a person rather than just as a representative of a particular niche.

Uh, because we're all more than a niche, right? We, we are complete human beings. And, so it's a, it's a different, different way of doing it. But yes, I, I think. There is so much content out there and people don't know what to follow, what, what to consume. And so to the extent, is it about a niche or is it about just making it really clear who you are for?

It's, it's branding, right? Yes. It's what are you known for? 

Adam Spencer: Yes. Well, that's, so I'm so glad you said that, uh, brand because, uh, that's my next question. And actually just to kind of cap that off, I think the question is like, what's your objective? Is it to grow big or to grow deep? Do you want a large audience across a broad spectrum or do you want an incredibly passionate audience that know you like they know the back of their hand and they trust you above everything else.

Which audience do you want? 

Yaniv Bernstein: Definitely the latter. And you know, the world's a big place. So I think even in a relatively narrow niche, you can end up with an audience that seems pretty big. Like, you know, if you have 50, 000 people following you, is that a big audience? I'd say yes. And you can easily get that in a niche.

We're not there yet, by the way. But, um, I think that's, that's realistic, right? 

Adam Spencer: Yeah, 100, 000 downloads though, uh, over 100, 000 downloads, right? Yep. Yeah, 

Yaniv Bernstein: congratulations. There's only room for a few really big general shows in the world, like a few dozen or a few hundred globally, where you can build that audience of millions across a bunch of different things.

And I think that's, you know, obviously a pretty cool thing to do. It's also a particular type of show. I think if you have a show on a relatively narrow topic, then what you want to do is be known, be unique, right? Be known for that one niche and be the obvious place where people go for content or for information knowledge on that niche.

And then people, yeah, they get, they get passionate. And I think, like I said, I get excited when we get that sort of passionate feedback where people say, you know, this is my favorite show. I listen to you in the car every day, whatever, you know. Like I said, that term parasocial relationships is really interesting because even though we only have a few thousand followers, um, I've had a couple of these like celebrity sighting moments where in, in the wee works of Sydney where people come up to me and they're like, Oh, I love your show.

And um, you know, it's, you realize you, you become a part of people's lives and that is. First of all, it's, it's awesome and secondly, in terms of opportunity for building other businesses or whatever it's, I think that is deeper than just, you know, being able to advertise to millions of listeners on a CPM basis.

It's like, we have an audience, we have a community that we can have mutually beneficial arrangements with of all different types. And I think that is, that's really exciting. 

Adam Spencer: And when they come up, take a photo with you, you say, can you please leave a review? I haven't had 

Yaniv Bernstein: the photo, I haven't had the photo up yet.

I don't think I've got the face for it, but, um, but yeah, most people are like, oh man, I love your show. It's so cool. It's the best show. And you know, that's, that's very validating. 

Adam Spencer: Yeah. Awesome. And so on branding. Um, I know, you know, you guys rebranded probably, what, six months ago? Yeah, something like that.

What was the thinking behind that and, and the process that you went through? 

Yaniv Bernstein: Yeah. So we, we actually partnered with a company called Until Now, who are sort of friends of the pod. It's, it was founded by a couple of former Airtasker folks who, who I know well, and you know, they were fans of the podcast.

And so we sort of talked with them about, you know, how can we. Kind of have our glow up, you know, it wasn't a full rebrand. We didn't change the name. We didn't change the positioning, but it's like, how can we have a brand identity, uh, you know, especially visually that reflected what we're trying to do and that gave us some versatility.

For example, we've just released our merch. Um, you know, first set of t shirts and mugs and stuff, but also, you know, on our website and on, on the cover art, like how do we have a, a look and feel. That is consistent, that our audience starts to identify with and that, that we feel good about. And so I think, you know, there's still a bit of mystery and dark art to that, but we went through with, with until now as branding experts and it was a real eyeopening experience, sort of the thinking that goes into it and, um, yeah, actually really enjoyed that process.

But yeah, I think we just went from being like, Hey, look, you know, we slapped together the brand and while the, you know, Chris is a good visual designer, so even though it was slapped together, it didn't look terrible. Um, but it's like, okay, what's the grownup versatile logo type and logo that we can use in all different places.

And we have that now, which just gives us a lot of flexibility. 

Adam Spencer: Is there one thing that you wanted to kind of communicate through the branding? What you kind of stood for or what your mission was? Because it's very bold. Well, 

Yaniv Bernstein: it's bold. So we wanted it to be just, yeah, visually striking. But also, you know, I think it's, we wanted to have a sort of a bit of a growth motif.

So if you look at it, it's a little bit like a, Uh, histogram turned on its side. So it's like, okay, let's talk about growth. Like how do you grow your business? I guess one of the axes is like serious versus fun. And we want them to kind of land in the middle of that, right? Like you don't want to sort of look like a hundred year old consultancy, but we're also like, you know, we're, we're a serious premium kind of podcast for people who actually value their time.

And they're not just looking for entertainment. 

Adam Spencer: Yeah. 

Yaniv Bernstein: And so it's, it's really about conveying that, you know, that's the thing with a brand, it's not like. You're trying to create a feeling, an impression, and especially, you know, when you're in a search result in a listening app or whatever, to catch people's attention, and that's really what we were trying to do.

Adam Spencer: Yes, well you've, yes, you've done that visually, and that is one of the biggest challenges with podcasting, the discoverability, and then when you rarely have someone scrolling through, you know, trying to find a new podcast to listen to. Amongst a sea of other artworks. Yeah. How do you stand out? Have you captured someone's eye?

Yaniv Bernstein: Yeah. And I think, you know, like there's a lot of crappy podcasts out there, not very well produced, you know, not lot, not a lot of episodes, not regularly published. So how do you create a brand that makes you look serious? Because you are in the sense of like, okay, you know, we're, we're committed to building this.

We're a, we're a real podcast. We're not somebody's. Little hobby anymore. We started off that way, but now we're a hundred episodes old. We're for real. Yeah, how you know How do you convey that visually? 

Adam Spencer: Yeah, I love the way you said before grown up, you know We're growing up now. We're serious. Yep. And we're going to be around, so take a shot on us.

Have a listen. Convey that. It's 100 episodes in. March 2022, which wasn't that long ago. No. You know, feels like it was only yesterday. But a hundred episodes in, you've been doing this for a while, why podcasting? What attracted you to that, to that medium as opposed to a newsletter or blog or? 

Yaniv Bernstein: I think two things.

The first is that conversational dynamic, right? So for those who haven't listened to the podcast, there are two hosts, like, like you mentioned, myself and Chris. So the format of the podcast is a sort of It's a, it's a dialogue format, right? We're not interviewing each other. We're talking about a topic and we're riffing off each other back and forth.

And so that, that's spoken that the energy of that and the way you can sort of bounce off each other was something that, that appealed to me right from the start, you know, enjoyed sort of panel style podcasts and that sort of thing. When we have a guest, uh, we don't call it an interview and try not to treat it as an interview.

We call them a guest cohost. So now we're just adding a third person who has expertise in a particular topic. And we bring them in and of course, we do ask them questions, but we have a conversation with them, uh, rather than say, you know, we are the interviewer, it's the three of us talking about a topic that they happen to know a lot about.

So we've really enjoyed that. Um, and then on the audience side, you know, again, maybe it wasn't as intentional at the beginning, but it became apparent very quickly is the numbers on podcasts are low compared to other media, you know. On LinkedIn, I can get thousands, tens of thousands of impressions on a post.

I've never had 10, 000 downloads of a single episode of the podcast. The depth of the relationship. The fact that they are listening to your voice in their ears for an hour a week, uh, I think you get, like I said, I keep coming back to this term parasocial relationship, but what it means, because I'm on the other side of it, the podcast that I love, I feel like I know those people.

Adam Spencer: Yeah. 

Yaniv Bernstein: I would love to be their friend. You don't get that from a newsletter. You certainly don't get it from, you know, LinkedIn posts and so on. And so I think it's, it's quite, yeah, they're intimate for want of a better term. It's an intimate medium and so the, the people who become fans of your podcast really become, you know, a part of your community in a way that I don't think other formats really allow.

Adam Spencer: I want to follow on to that with It's hard to explain that relationship to non podcast listeners, people that don't love podcasts because similar to you in, in how you've, you know, you fall in love with the host, you know, of that, that show, you want to be their friend. That's how I kind of fell in love with podcasting in the first place.

2012, started listening to a podcast called Small, uh, Smart Passive Income Podcast, this guy building an online business. I was just there. I was listening to every single episode. I just loved this guy and what he was building and, you know, I wanted to be his friend. I wanted to learn from him. I would, I would tell everyone to listen to this podcast.

You don't get, you don't really get that kind of level of a relationship with any other medium. Podcasting is deep. It's not wide. 

Yaniv Bernstein: That's right. I mean, in a way it's, you know, it's obviously it's a spiritual successor of radio and you know, for those, uh, who are old enough to remember for themselves or even more, you you'll find your, your parents generation maybe.

You'd have the same channel open every day, and you'd have the host, and you know, I guess it's still talk radio, right? Some folks are still listening to it, and so it's partly generational, like a lot of these things, but, you know, my parents used to listen to the same radio show every morning, like, you know, on ABC News.

And they, they got to know the people and, you know, when the host left and a new host came like a couple of years later, there would be a sort of a lightweight mourning period, a bit of grief that, you know, they miss the old host. And, and so I think, you know, like, like with everything in the world, it's, there's nothing quite new under the sun, but that depth of relationship, because it's, it's something that you have on.

While you're doing other things, it's a voice in your ear. It's it's personal. Yeah, it's, it is special. And, and podcasting, yeah, it does have a branding problem. Like I think it's still a bad name, you know, it's streaming audio. And I think that's why it's hard to grow an audience, but also very hard to lose an audience in the sense of.

I think the, the growth is slow, but the loyalty, the stickiness, the retention is epic. Um, because it's a big commitment to listen to a new show, right? It's not like you're on, on Twitter or LinkedIn and, you know, all you need to do to get into somebody else's feed is, you know, the algorithm does it for you and suddenly someone's reading your content who has never read it before.

To get into a new podcast is a major commitment relative to that. And so, you know, there's that, the time commitment, that sort of that intimacy that you, you're going into someone else's world and becoming a part of it a little bit. Um, I think it's, it is a, it is a special format. 

Adam Spencer: And I think on average the people only subscribe to like six or seven shows to kind of break through and become one of that sixth or seventh show is a Pretty big honor.

And yeah, hard to fall off that. 

Yaniv Bernstein: That's right. I think you become a part of someone's life. Like I said, and you're right, honor is a good word. Like I don't feel honored to be in someone's LinkedIn feed. Like that's just, that's what it is. Right. But to, for people to say, you know, I listened to you every, every week on my drive to work or whatever.

And it's like, okay, I'm, I'm actually meaningfully a part of their life. You know, not, not the most major part of their life, but a part of their life in, in a non trivial way. And I think that's pretty, pretty cool. And it's, yeah, it is an honor. 

Adam Spencer: And I, I advocate for podcasts to be kind of this top of the content stack where it is informing and, um, enabling a whole lot of other types of content.

Many other mediums. Do you kind of use the podcast in that way? Do you, does it kind of give you ideas for LinkedIn posts? Does it give you ideas for articles or blog posts? Do you have a content strategy and how do you think about that around your podcast? 

Yaniv Bernstein: I mean, I will preface this by saying, I think we're not doing a great job.

I think we're under utilizing and that's part of what comes from it being a side hustle. It's like we produce the content, but then, uh, that's, that's pretty much us. Spent, you know, in terms of all that time, um, but, you know, I definitely feel that, you know, again, I talked about that conversational format at bouncing off each other.

I think new ideas and. Especially new ways of expressing or distilling existing ideas come about conversation conversationally. Right. I get these new metaphors, new, new sort of slogans, whatever. And I try to use those in my other content, but I, I do think there's an abundance of ideas and content there that we could make better use of and that, you know, in a sense, yes, it can be the sort of the engine that you can use to create, you know, other, other bits of distribution, a community, a whole bunch of stuff.

And we have ideas, we have plans, but I think for us it's really more about, uh, finding the time to do it. Yeah. It's a little bit like that niche question that you asked before. I feel like at the moment we are kind of abundant and I kind of like that in the sense of we're just, we're talking about a lot of stuff.

We're producing a lot of good content. I think we're not squeezing all the juice out of it that we could be, but I kind of prefer to say, Hey, let's just keep Doing new stuff rather than slowing down to squeeze more juice. If that's, if that's the trade off, then I'm like, let's just keep doing what we're doing for now.

Adam Spencer: Yeah. And you can always revisit it later and get more out of it later because it is, it's there forever. 

Yaniv Bernstein: Well, that's the other interesting thing. Yeah. Like the, the content is. Kind of most of it is evergreen, right? So we're building a back catalog and that there is that in a sense, you've got this at least quadratic growth where it's like, I mentioned our first episode is still one of our most listened to, uh, because it still gets listened to every week.

All of our episodes get new listens every week because the content doesn't. Age particularly. So obviously it depends on the type of podcast you have, but a lot of, a lot of podcasts have that format where the content has a long shelf life. It's evergreen. Um, and because of that, the more of it you have, the more powerful a tool it gets, right?

We've got content in there. If we wanted to like write a book, if we wanted to publish a book or create courses or whatever, it's all sitting there waiting for us to mine. Um, and it's not disappearing. So, you know, I feel like it's not. An opportunity that we have once and then goes away. We're kind of banking it for when we have more time and resources, and then we'll probably come back to it.

Adam Spencer: Yeah. The, the flip side of that is especially, and we did this with the history series, um, for the majority of the content, we, we archived it, we tagged it, we, we categorized it all. So with the view that, you know, one day we could. We could do something with it. We could create a special episode all about Venture raising a seed round and we could just go back into the archive, type in a few things, and it would give us all the interviews, everything from the transcript that talked about that.

We could mix and easily edit that into a new special episode. So the flip side of that, as you kind of build up this huge reservoir of content, if you're not doing that, categorizing it, And navigating that enormous resource down the line is just, it's going to become harder and harder to find the bits and pieces that you, that you want.

Yaniv Bernstein: But this is, this is where to, to the point I was making earlier, well it's AI, yes. But also it just backs into this becoming a business, right? Like at a certain point when you have enough content, you really want someone who is a content curator, whose job it is to dive into the back catalog and produce new, engaging content.

Stuff out of it and to become the expert in your back catalog in a way that you yourself are not, um, and you know, so you can see quite easily, I mean, right now it's like if we had the money, I reckon we could easily keep a staff of three people reasonably busy between, you know, production, promotion, uh, excavation, uh, you know, and just maximizing the, the potential and the value Squeezed out of the content.

So we just, we don't, we need to, we need more sponsors. 

Adam Spencer: Yep. And if anyone wants to listen to this show, this would go on the show notes, but I think TTSP. show is that the best link? 

Yaniv Bernstein: ESP. show is the best link. And you know, if, if you have a, a service that you would like to sell to a high value audience of founders who are making the decisions for their company, um, we'd love to talk to you about sponsorship.

Adam Spencer: Yeah. And I'd love to also talk to you about the day one network and the first check. 

Yaniv Bernstein: It's okay. We're the best of friends. 

Adam Spencer: A few more, a few more questions. Especially, I'm really interested to dive into the kind of growth and audience. Yep. It probably hasn't been linear necessarily, or maybe it has in terms of your growth.

I'm imagining the first 10 episodes, 30 episodes, maybe slight increase in growth, or was it, how did it work for you? I 

Yaniv Bernstein: mean, if you zoom out enough, it, it does look fairly linear, actually, you know, you've, we had a few kind of breakout episodes in the sense of, yeah, it's interesting. Cause I compare, I talk to other podcasters and they say, you know, they have, including yourself, I have some episodes that really hit and get a heap of listeners and others that kind of don't really, we get a pretty consistent number of listeners to each of our episodes.

It's not identical, but it's fairly consistent. But what we found has been a couple of episodes that have brought new listeners, not just to that episode. But to the show, so it's nearly been like a step function change where we're like, okay, we published an episode and then we kind of had 50 percent more listeners from there on in.

Wow. But that, that was more in the early days. And so that's 50 percent off a pretty small base. And since then it's been, yeah, it has been a sort of relatively linear, relatively consistent growth, um, with some fits and starts. But like I said, once you zoom out, you're like, oh, okay, that's, that's pretty much a line.

Adam Spencer: What's been working? Have you been able to pinpoint any of the, any, like any of the activities you've been doing that are working better than others to, to bring in new listeners? There is 

Yaniv Bernstein: no, which is frustrating. It's definitely like there isn't. I like, Oh, okay. I press this button and I get this result.

Um, and I think, you know, it's, it's a, a lot of this stuff is a slow burn and I actually think that podcast promotion, uh, include both paid and organic in that, but just generally distribution, it's a branding play, right? And it comes back to what I was saying earlier, which is that the level of commitment that it takes for someone to even try listening to your podcast is really high.

The activation energy Is high. So they actually kind of need to already trust the podcast quite a lot to even sample it. That's the crazy thing, right? And so, you know, I think the most powerful channel is word of mouth. Um, the next most powerful channels are building up like this multi touch funnel nearly, but a funnel sounds really structured, but it's really like, you know, I think like my brand on LinkedIn and Chris's brand on LinkedIn, like we talk about the podcast and people know us and they see us talk about the podcast and eventually, eventually they're like, Oh, okay, maybe I'll give it a try.

And similarly with some of the paid stuff that we do, um, you know, we advertise on Overcast, which I quite like doing, which is a, you know, a sort of. A niche, but well loved, uh, podcasting app on iOS and a very simple, easy podcast, uh, advertising product. Um, and yeah, that gets us new subscribers. Like I said, we do all these things and I, I think the, the growth graph is like smooth enough that I'm like.

It really is just you're building up this brand equity and eventually people are like, okay, I'll give it a try. Um, there's, there's, it's very hard to say, okay, you know, I run an ad or whatever it is. Um, and then you get a new listener. It doesn't seem to work that way. 

Adam Spencer: And on the flip side, it says, are there things that you have tried?

Some, maybe someone recommended it to you, like this is how you grow an audience. Uh, and you tried it and, and you're like, nah, nah, we're never doing that again. 

Yaniv Bernstein: Like I said, I think most of the audience growing hacks work less well for podcasting. It's one thing to grow your audience on LinkedIn. I think there are sort of well known approaches for that.

And then you go to the next level and it's like. Newsletters is somewhere in the middle, but I think there are some better known approaches for that. I think podcasting, again, the commitment level is so high. And so I think the hacks don't work. It's, it's too meaningful. Like you have to actually build a meaningful level of trust before someone tries something.

I think the one that I'm more interested in, which, which, which we do, but I don't think we haven't invested in doing well yet. Is YouTube because YouTube sits at this intersection where, you know, it, first of all, they, they're trying to become a podcast platform. They're not trying very hard yet, but they are trying, but YouTube has that sort of algorithmic amplification that you get from, uh, something like a, you know, a social network.

Yeah. Uh, but also you have that sort of full content immersion. I think if you learn to work the YouTube algorithm well enough, you get new subscribers on YouTube. And then you have a channel for people to sample your podcast and eventually, uh, become regular listeners. So it's something that I'd like to invest in more in 2024 is YouTube as a, as a consumption channel, as a distribution channel, but even more so as a growth channel, it's like, how can we funnel people in through YouTube shorts to becoming subscribers to then trying our episodes on YouTube and then either continuing to listen there or actually put it in their podcast listening app.

Adam Spencer: Yeah. Listen to you on YouTube, hit follow on one of your social channels, and then. Find the pod, you know, subscribe to the podcast through the social channel. 

Yaniv Bernstein: Yeah, but I mean, that's the thing, like on podcasting, the, the other challenge with it is it has no built in distribution channels, like zero, right?

Like, because it is this sort of organic, like community, like, you know, it's just RSS feeds. It's a sort of tech from, uh, pre web, it's like web 1. 0 tech sitting on top of that. Right. And so all of these other things, there's an algorithm to play, right? You can, you can play games with the algorithm. Um, with LinkedIn and so on.

There's no algorithm for podcasting. There's just, there's just your content and there's just your listeners and that's it. And you have to, you have to earn each one. 

Adam Spencer: Yeah, I love that you use the word earn on Earning Is. As a developer turned operations, still those things, but now also a content creator, are there, like, are there any skills or expertise that you've brought from being a developer and in operations that has served you well in content creating?

Yaniv Bernstein: I'll say what it is, it's actually having something to talk about. And again, I, you know, coincidentally, I just came off, um, recording an episode with a, uh, another content creator for, for the startup podcast. And one of the things that we talked about is like, yeah, here are all these like strategies around building a personal brand and so on.

But the, the kind of the word of warning at the end is like, make sure you have something to talk about, be a doer, right? Do things. And then as you learn, as you get that hard earned experience, as you develop a point of view, as you develop opinions from, from moving through the world. Then you have stuff to talk about.

And so I think the fact that I've been a software engineer at Google, that I've been a scale up guy, that I've been an advisor and a coach, and an angel investor, um, and a founder, all these things, I'm like, these are all things I now get to talk about. Sometimes, I know we've been talking about content a lot, we've been using that word, it can seem a bit reductionist, like it's just like fungible, like it's water or something.

No, content is your unique view of the world that you are sharing with others. And Everyone has something to say, uh, but you know, if you, if you focus on doing things that are worth talking about, then you will have more to say. And so I think, you know, content, um, especially if you, if you, you know, using your own, like, you are the, you are the creator of the content, you, you need to, you need to be living your life and, and having a career beyond just the creation of the content or else you, you run out of things to talk about.

So I think that's the way it's really benefited me. 

Adam Spencer: How do you think about I want to use Harry Stebbings as an example, on 20VC. Are you familiar with that show? Yes, I am. He started really young, I'm pretty sure. 

Yaniv Bernstein: Yeah, he still is. He's like 12 years old, man. Yeah, but like, 

Adam Spencer: for people like that, that, You know, maybe they don't have so much life experience and, and, and things, opinions and things to talk about.

How do they create, I mean, I, I think I know the answer, but how do they create content that, that grows to the level that it is like the people listening to him and. 

Yaniv Bernstein: Yeah. Well, well, Harry's, Harry's an interesting one, right? So he, yes. Like for those who, who not familiar with him is. The host of a podcast called the 20 minute VC, which I think he started when he was still a teenager and he's just one of those people who he got obsessed with venture capital.

He was really interested in it and he started this podcast and just started interviewing venture capitalists. I think he was good at cold emailing, didn't take no for an answer. It was probably cute how young he was. So we've got great guests, but I think he talks about, you know, it took him hundreds of episodes till he got to 1000 downloads per episode.

And so the way I nearly think of Harry's journey is that. Those first few years of podcasting, talking to all those VCs, he was studying venture capital. And so he actually, by the time he became popular, he had done a lot. It was just through the framework of the podcast itself. Right. And now he has his own fund and everything.

So now he's an investor himself off the back of the podcast, off the back of the deal flow and so on. Um, so I think, you know, you can start off by interviewing people, right. And you can be a good interviewer. And I think that that is one valid approach, but I think if you're a really good interviewer. You yourself are learning from all the people you talk to and at a certain point you gain your own expertise from that synthesis of hundreds of Conversations you've had with interesting people.

I love that. Like Harry has his own opinions a lot of his own opinions now 

Adam Spencer: Yeah 

Yaniv Bernstein: through doing over a thousand episodes of his podcast, you know, 

Adam Spencer: yeah, awesome Um, I know we're getting to the end two more questions. No worries any Recommendations for you like someone out there that's thinking of getting started podcasting like any kind of go to tools that you For the content workflow.

Yaniv Bernstein: Yep. So we're right now we're recording on Riverside. Um, which is the sort of remote, uh, recording studio. Riverside. fm. Absolutely use that. Descript for editing is a real game changer. It's a very fast workflow. So with those two tools, you can get sort of. Say 70 percent of the way to a really professionally produced and edited podcast.

Uh, you, you know, to get it to a hundred percent, you will need an actual professional editor. They can do amazing work, but, you know, Descript and Riverside get you a pretty long way. Um, and, and that's it, you know, I think my, my main advice is really just get started. So, um, like I said, our first episode was recorded over zoom.

Um, and we used what was called anchor at the time is now Spotify for podcasters for hosting. I don't think it's the best hosting platform, but it takes 10 minutes to get started. So I think, you know, one of the biggest challenges that there are the two biggest challenges to podcasting are one getting started and two.

Then staying the course keep going. 

Adam Spencer: Yeah. 

Yaniv Bernstein: So I think, you know, those are the tools I'd say it can become more and more work over time, but you want to start. Unless you're, you know, you're an actual professional like yourself, Adam, who's sort of built, you know, the business around it. You want to start in a way that doesn't create a huge amount of work and you can always level up from there.

So I, yeah, I would recommend that stack of Riverside plus Descript and then Spotify for podcasters is absolutely fine. We still use it for hosting. You can get all that set up in under an hour and, you know, be ready to go. 

Adam Spencer: I would just add one on to the top of that, which is I, I always recommend Captivate.

fm. As a host. Okay. I've used them for a few years. They're based in the UK. They're awesome. Good to know. And last question. Is there anything that I, uh, I like asking this one. Is there anything that I haven't asked you that you really would like to, that you wish was in the podcast? Actually, 

Yaniv Bernstein: I think you've done a pretty good job.

What would I leave listeners with? I think I've covered this already, but it seems a bit trite, but if you want to produce good content, live an interesting life. I think that's, that's really at the core of it. 

Adam Spencer: Thank you for your time today. Yeah. 

Yaniv Bernstein: Okay. Thanks Adam. It's been a lot of fun.